holistic health

Interesting discussion; and a reminder of how much bigger skin stuff and MUA and suchlike are than just places where trivial girly types hang out and natter pointlessly about pointless tat, compete on hoards, start fads and crazes, complain and bitch and whinge, be silly, and generally exemplify first-world problems and destroy any last vestige of feminist cred. Let alone basic common human dignity. There’s more to skin care than just keeping your skin stuck to your bones; though for some of us that’s already a tall order… There’s everything that’s going on under the skin, including in the mind; and there’s conversations about skin that reveal so much bare naked emotional truth about the interlocutors.

In the following, while there may be grounds for counter-trollism suspicion, there’s much to sympathize with on all sides.

That’s all. No further comment.

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Aaand meanwhile over on the Café board:

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Commentary back on the Skin Care Board; good idea for post, as preventing thread necrophilia on the original one; albeit enabling a pile-up of bitching, carping, ganging up, and reasonable legit criticism (with woolly grey areas swiming around all these things…):

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And back on Café, we see that The Benefit Of The Doubt, charity, and generosity of spirit are still alive and well. The two things I like best about Café are its honesty and its comedy. They can also be things I like least about it, when they’re brutal, vicious, and mean and mean-spirited. But there’s always also some friendly jibing, good-tempered teasing to keep people’s spirits up, and spirited defence of friends around.

But also: down with shite-spouting about respect and relativism. Time for a fashion revival in principles, sense, judgement, and trust–OK, not a fashion revival; more an end to fashion through making all that is unfashionable permanently in fashion: all things that are good, true, subjective, individual, and human and humane.

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  1. anna3101

    Personally, I can understand the girl who has problems with her pores all too well. And I find it quite hypocritical when people throw remarks like “I wish I had your problems” or “Don’t you have important things to worry about?” or “When will you grow up?” whereas they themselves often throw hysterics over things as trivial (or even more) as their victim. I have no idea whether she is a beauty or an ugly troll but even if she is perfection herself but feels insecure, the problem IS real for her (and it doesn’t necessarily mean she does not realize there are more important things in life). I have heard the “You really have nothing to worry about, that’s why you invent problems” line all too many times – whenever I talk about animal rights, global warming, vegetarianism etc. It’s a nice and safe way for people to discard whatever other people say and feel superior. However, it hurts the other person and I really don’t understand why they need to be so hateful…

    • gingerama

      I agree; the two reasons I didn’t contribute to that conversation were:
      (1) a boring practical one: read it too late… due to work, I’m not on MUA 24/7 and I’m in a later time-zone;
      (2) I felt for all concerned, including (but not only) the poor girl with the pores. Nearly everyone there (Elf_107, as ever, a rare exception) reacted rapidly and in an impassioned way. Which meant, as is ever the case, being hasty; in some cases, making assumptions; in several cases, saying things before the implications and ramifications had been thought through. That’s the dark face of caring about something…

      I really didn’t know what I could say that would be useful and constructive and peace-making, and by the time I thought of something (along the lines of “hugs”), it was too late. It’s the classic thing that happens so often in arguments: no-one can win because everyone is right, and no-one is *in* the right because by a certain stage–the point of no return–everyone has said things that are hurtful and that can’t be unsaid. I’m not saying that some things should be left unsaid, or that people said things they didn’t mean; but there’s always many ways of communicating the same information (=rhetoric), which will have very different tone, emotional undertone, and effects.

      In a sense, almost everyone in that conversation could be labelled as either trolling (obsessed with a certain point, and with oneself, to the exclusion of all else, and of all others, and imputations and implications…) or a troll. For the latter, see picture coming up: those who came to the defence of the original poster, often via other later posts, thereby committing the heinous offence of Thread Necrophilia. Whilst often at the same time also being good people supporting a friend, or just someone with whom they felt some sympathy, whether because they’d been in the same or a similar position themselves, or just through basic human decency.

      This is the issue with trolling and trolls: very grey area, and often when you think that trollery looks clearest, it’s also the clearest case of sincerity, honesty, and truth to self. The reason I posted this whole episode were about that: and hard ethical questions. To which there is often no simple answer; just as here, I cannot in all honesty say “I’m on this side” or “this person is clearly right and this one’s wrong.” It’s also maybe a nice case of seeing that humans remain human, even in a virtual environment and as their virtual selves?

      • gingerama

        the follow-up: see, here’s where it gets unnecessarily catty, and it’s too often precisely those who complain about bullying who then gang up and bully. And then of course if someone attacks you, you’ll be defensive and, well, defend yourself: completely natural and normal. I’d do exactly the same myself. It’s all very well imagining I’d do something saintly, turn the other cheek, but I’m human and these people are human too, and they’re behaving like humans. So: I’m not making any grand statements on goodness and badness here, aside from a “tsk” at the hypocritical bullying (i.e. saying “bullying is awful” + then bullying, or dissing, or otherwise acting negatively towards another person). Which is bad because
        (1) it’s bullying
        (2) it’s hypocrisy
        (3) it’s with all the facts in front of you, after the fact, so without the defence of acting in passion on the spur of the moment.

        Best policy is surely to express positive things (even if that’s “I don’t know what to do, but I feel for you”) whenever possible, or say nothing at all. If in doubt, say nothing. Send out peaceful vibes. Be they visible and tangible and uttered, or invisible. Maybe I’ve been living on the West Coast for too long…

        Without further ado and hand-wringing and pearl-clutching, here’s some bits of follow-up that illustrate the points above, and might help explain my wincing and hemming and hawing over what I’d have done instead (bearing in mind that’s all hypothetical would-have-beens and pure fiction/fantasy in an ideal world anyway…)

        etc etc
        etc etc etc
        etc 4
        etc 5
        etc 6
        etc 7

      • anna3101

        I’m not sure that humans remain exactly as they are in the virtual community – I have an impression they become more aggressive and more ruthless when they think they are anonymous. This is a very sad trend in the Polish&Russian forums, article comments etc. There are plenty of “people” (can I even call them people?) who love to pour dirt over others, use swear words, provoke quarrels, insult, write homophobic, misogynistic, racist remarks etc etc. It breaks my heart to see this kind of behaviour…

        Only recently there was an article about animal testing in a popular online magazine. You know what most of the commentators said? Things like “who cares about if those rabbits die” or “those eco freaks should be put in prison” were among the mildest ones 😦 Sometimes I really don’t know how it’s possible homo sapiens haven’t yet exterminated each other just for the fun of it, we seem to be the kind of species that have so much hate inside us 😦

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